criticism of marxian theory of economic development

In some of its earlier formulations (for example in Marx's analysis of the character of the 'coming social revolution') their predictions were testable, and in fact falsified. criticisms of Marxian approach to development. [84][85][86] Marx predicted that wages would tend to depreciate and that capitalist economies would suffer worsening economic crises leading to the ultimate overthrow of the capitalist system. When Marx's predictions were not in fact borne out, Popper argues that the theory was saved from falsification by the addition of ad hoc hypotheses which attempted to make it compatible with the facts. [84] Popper devoted much attention to dissecting the practice of using the dialectic in defence of Marxist thought, which was the very strategy employed by V.A. But, this is an exaggerated view for the long run effect of technological progress. "The social and political views of American professors. Hence if somebody twists this into saying that the economic element is the only determining one, he transforms that proposition into a meaningless, abstract, senseless phrase. (1992) A History of Marxian Economics: Volume II, 19291990, chapter 7, sects. Capitalism is the worst, until you compare it to everything else.The natural world is competitive. Control of the economic base does not mean control of the superstructure, False consciousness is a problem concept in postmodern society, Capitalism has lifted billions of people out of poverty. This compensation may impact how and where listings appear. In other words, Marx argued that workers create value through their labor but are not properly compensated. Historical determinism has also been associated with scholars like Arnold Toynbee and Oswald Spengler, but in recent times this conceptual approach has fallen into disuse. "Marx's value reasoning hardly a peripheral aspect of his work must therefore be abandoned, in the interest of developing a coherent materialist theory of capitalism." Competition may not be the best conceivable stimulus, but it is at present a necessary one, and no one can foresee the time when it will not be indispensable to progress. 1. "Kaldor-Hicks efficiency and the problem of central planning." Ruling Class Theory 4. edison awards 2022 nominees. Some Marxist "laws" are vague and can be interpreted differently, but these interpretations generally fall into one of the aforementioned categories of flaws as well. The Austrian School was not alone in criticizing the Marxian and classical belief in the labor theory of value. WebMarx postulated the essentials of the basesuperstructure concept in his preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy (1859): 1a : an entity, concept, or Classic Marxist theory has been criticised for being economically deterministic. Marx argued that economic laws determined not only the shape of society but also the direction of history itself. Although he asserted the philosophical autonomy of Marxs thought, his version of Marxism remained in line with the critique of speculative philosophies developed in the course of his earlier studies. Criticism # 1. Webcriticism of marxian theory of economic development. In general, Malthus was Daniel Liberto is a journalist with over 10 years of experience working with publications such as the Financial Times, The Independent, and Investors Chronicle. WebThe development of human society through various stages, development and change in the material condition, existence, development of capitalism, and the corresponding A class is made up of people who are in the same position in relation to the ownership and control of the means of wealth production. It is suggestive but vague. Marx's theory of economic development is based on the idea that societies progress through a series of stages, each of which is characterized by a different mode of Peter Singer proposes that the way to solve this problem is to understand that Marx saw the economic base as ultimately real. Sarkar's Reconstruction of Science and Society", "David Harvey: Socialists Must Be the Champions of Freedom", "Reminder: Liberalism Is Working, and Marxism Has Always Failed", "Millennials open to socialism are not living in the real world", "The Rise and Decline of General Laws of Capitalism", "What is the biggest flaw in the labor theory of value? WebMarxism, a body of doctrine developed by Karl Marx and, to a lesser extent, by Friedrich Engels in the mid-19th century. 7.1 IntroductionThis unit deals with the central Marxian idea on development. The essence therefore can by him only be regarded as 'species', as an inner 'dumb' generality which unites many individuals only in a natural way. The essence therefore can by him only be regarded as 'species', as an inner 'dumb' generality which unites many individuals only in a natural way. Many notable academics such as Karl Popper, David Prychitko, Robert C. Allen, and Francis Fukuyama argue that many of Marx's predictions have failed. 2. Control of the Economic Base does not mean control of the Superstructure, Capitalism has changed and works for many, Eight Reasons Why We Should All be Marxists | ReviseSociology, Company Bosses really dont deserve their high incomes | ReviseSociology, The Marxist Perspective on Society | ReviseSociology. The labor theory of value (LTV) says that the value of an item relates directly to the labor hours taken to produce it. The socialist revolution would occur first in the most advanced capitalist nations and once collective ownership had been established then all sources of class conflict would disappear. Goals and Objectives: In this chapter, we will do the following: Explore the early history of Marxian economics. He fails to explain that how the rate of profit and investment depends upon consumption. Marx was analyzing the problem of growth with the help of tools which were essentially suited to static economic analysis. Mises and Hayek argued that this is the only possible solution and, without the information provided by market prices, socialism lacks a method to rationally allocate resources. He believed the Bourgeoisie controlled the superstructure and that they used institutions such as religion to spread false consciousness which distracted workers from their alienating working conditions which prevented them from rising up in revolution. By clicking Accept, you consent to the use of ALL the cookies. [68], Proponents of the temporal single system interpretation (TSSI) of Marx's value theory, like Kliman, claim that the supposed inconsistencies are actually the result of misinterpretation and argue that when Marx's theory is understood as "temporal" and "single-system", the alleged internal inconsistencies disappear. WebMarxist perspective opposes the idealist philosophy that focuses on conceptualizing a spiritual world. The basic fact is clear: the good society must accept men and women as they are. [61], Critics who have alleged that Marx has been proved internally inconsistent include former and current Marxian and/or Sraffian economists, such as Paul Sweezy,[62] Nobuo Okishio,[63] Ian Steedman,[64] John Roemer,[65] Gary Mongiovi[66] and David Laibman,[67] who propose that the field be grounded in their correct versions of Marxian economics instead of in Marx's critique of political economy in the original form in which he presented and developed it in Capital. Marxism believes that Content Guidelines 2. Political economy is a branch of the social sciences that focuses on the interrelationships among individuals, governments, and public policy. Overview of academic criticism of the school of political economy, This article is about criticism of Marxism, a branch of socialism. More broadly, Marxian economic principles clash with the virtues of capitalist pursuits. The class structure today is more complex than Bourgeois-Proletariat. In most Western ", Capital as power: A study of order and creorder, Vulgar Economy in Marxian Garb: A Critique of Temporal Single System Marxism, "Marx, Keynes, Hayek and the Crisis of Capitalism", In Defence of Marx's Labour Theory of Value, "V.J. Or that people gather at the poles of the argument asserting that capitalism doesnt need referees at one pole, and shouldnt exist on the other pole.The truth is in the middle. WebOf Criticism Marxism In America The Library Tradition, as one of the most keen sellers here will categorically be along with the best options to review. Marxian Economics vs. Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. According to Marxism, The contribution of Karl Marx in the history of economic thought. Shimshon Bichler and Jonathan Nitzan argue that most studies purporting to show empirical evidence of the labor theory of value often make methodological errors by comparing the total labor value to total price of multiple economic sectors, which results in a strong overall correlation but this is a statistical exaggeration; the authors argue that the correlations between labor value and price in each sector are often very small if not insignificant. WebThis view is best summarized in Stanley Moore's A Critique of Capitalist Democracy (1957), a book based on an extremely close reading and synthesis of everything that Marx, Engels, and Lenin wrote on the subject of the state. Gross, Neil, and Solon Simmons. WebMerit 1: The Problem It Identifies. [citation needed] These points have also been debated by various thinkers, who argue that we currently exist in a Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie[25] and that Marxism is not deterministic. Princeton, NJ: Princeton Univ. Marxism is a materialist philosophy which tried to interpret the world based on the concrete, natural world around us and the society we live in. Marxian analysis of crisis at the most can be regarded as suggestive rather than analytical and convincing. WebDependency theory accepts certain neo-Marxist conceptions of the nature of development and underdevelopment, in particular the conception of the Paul M. Sweezy, 1970 (1942), Nobuo Okishio, 1961, "Technical Changes and the Rate of Profit,". WebThe main criticism for this theory is that it seems to ignore the reality that there are groups which are dominant over others. Features of Marxian Concept of Class 5. For example, Johnson stated: "The whole of the key Chapter Eight of Capital is a deliberate and systematic falsification to prove a thesis which an objective examination of the facts showed was untenable". III. WebHis critique of Marxism includes a strikingly modern comparison of Marx's early philosophical productions and later economic work. Karl Marx was a 19th-century philosopher, author, and economist famous for his ideas about capitalism and communism. In addition, there are four million self employed people who directly control the terms and conditions of their working lives. Conclusion Karl Marx's influence on the development of social thought cannot be emphasized enough. [24], Various thinkers have argued that a communist state would by its very nature erode the rights of its citizens due to the postulated violent revolution and dictatorship of proletariat, its collectivist nature, reliance on "the masses" rather than individuals, historical materialism and centrally planned economy. From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters. Capital in the Twenty-first Century: a fundamental criticism Part 3 Transition to capitalist production they do not think about being alienated. To abstract from the historical process and to define the religious sentiment regarded by itself, and to presuppose an abstract isolated - human individual. In an effort to reassert this approach to an understanding of the forces of history, Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar criticised what he considered the narrow conceptual basis of Marx's ideas on historical evolution. It is the product of their labour, together with that of the employer and subordinate managers, and of the capital employed". On the contrary, the real wages of workers have continuously increased in their value. It was used to explain the causes of I understand that Mr. Cohen agrees with me that Marx's own theory, as well as that of his Marxist-Leninist successors, is to be interpreted as a technological theory of history. In real world, we are not concerned with values but with real tangible prices. British economist Alfred Marshall attacked Marx, saying: "It is not true that the spinning of yarn in a factory [] is the product of the labour of the operatives. [31] Even if this new aristocracy were to have originated from among the ranks of the proletariat, Bakunin argued that their new-found power would fundamentally change their view of society and thus lead them to "look down at the plain working masses". This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. what There have been also no signs of the withering away of the state in these countries. The principal theories of economic growth include: Mercantilism Wealth of a nation determined by the accumulation of gold and running trade surplus. Role of innovator emphasized: Schumpeter theory The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. Some contemporary supporters of Marxism see many aspects of Marxist thought as viable, but contend that the corpus is incomplete or outdated in regard to certain aspects of economic, political or social theory. WebGlobalization theory suggests that the increasing interconnectedness of the world through trade, investment, and communication will lead to greater economic growth and development. Relates to the examination of Marxs assumptions and predictions in the light of the Marxian economics is a rejection of the classical view of economics developed by economists such as Adam Smith. Marx disagreed, arguing that capitalism consistently only benefits a select few. According to Marshall, price or value is determined not just by supply, but by the demand of the consumer. Learn how your comment data is processed. Marxian Theory of Economic Development Gravest and the most penetrating examination of the process of capitalist development Major assumptions: 1. There are two principal classes in the society a. Bourgeoisie b. Proletariat 2. Wages of the workers are determined at subsistence level of living. 3. Labour is the main source of value generation. 4. "What Is Historical Materialism?". Given the above three points, it seems ludicrous to argue that the superstructure is controlled by the Bourgeoisie and is used to create false consciousness. Definition of Class: Marx and Engels 2. [78] According to the book Reflections on a Ravaged Century by the British historian Robert Conquest, Marx was unable to put the Asian society in the development stages of slave, feudal, capitalist, socialist, and as a result, Asian society where much of the world's population lived for thousand of years was "out of the balance".[79]. WebThe concept of periodic crises within capitalism dates back to the works of the Utopian socialists Charles Fourier and Robert Owen and the Swiss economist Lonard de Sismondi. (vi) Capitalist did not meet its Predicted Doomsday: Marx also could not understand the emergence of political democracy as the protector and preserver of capitalism. In contrast to classical approaches to economic theory, Marxs favored government intervention. "Who Rules America: A Critique of Marxism", A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy, "Marxism and the Dialectical Method A critique of G.A. King. What Role Does the Government Play in Capitalism? WebMarxs Sociological Theory 4 Marxists, there is no clear consensus on Marx's theories. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Performance". Press. In the United Kingdom the state now provides universal health care, education, pensions and social security, as well as guaranteeing a minimum wage. Leiter, B. Marxian economics is a rejection of the classical view of economics developed by economists such as Adam Smith. The capitalist system facilitates the exploitation of workers (the proletariat) by the owners of the means of production (the bourgeoise). "Only one conclusion is possible, namely, that the Marxian method of transformation [of commodity values into prices of production] is logically unsatisfactory." Some thinkers have rejected the fundamentals of Marxist theory such as historical materialism and the labour theory of value and have gone on to criticise capitalism and advocate socialism using other arguments. Privacy Policy3. "[30], Anarchists have also argued that centralized communism would inevitably create coercion and state domination. WebIt is crucial to understand the Marxian critique of political economy, including Marxian value theory, in the context of Marxian theory as a wholewhich includes both epistemology and methodology. Generations of socialists and socially oriented leaders have learned this to their disappointment and more often to their sorrow. Either they are exercised on behalf of oppression or against it. Marx's failure to criticize the colonialist and antisemitic elements in nineteenth-century revolutionary theoryindeed, his methodological appropriation of these elements in order to increase the popular appeal of his economic theoryshort-circuited criticism of these trends from the only quarters from which it conceivably might have You see every single strategy of capitalism employed in the natural world. Cambridge University Press. May 22, 2022. Hayek, (1935), "The Nature and History of the Problem" and "The Present State of the Debate," om in F.A. Lektorsky in his defence of Marxism against Popper's criticisms. the result was a general trend toward economic stagnation--a condition that persists, and is increasingly apparent, to this day. Marxian economics have been criticized for a number of reasons. An audio version of this article, excerpted from the forthcoming audiobook version, read by Unlike liberalism, which sees rights as a positive-sum good that can expand or contract for society as a whole, Marxists (and other left-wing critics of liberalism) think of political rights as a zero-sum conflict. Thus while social evolution according to Marx is governed chiefly by economic conditions, to Sarkar this dynamic is propelled by forces varying with time and space: sometimes physical prowess and high-spiritedness, sometimes intellect applied to dogmas and sometimes intellect applied to the accumulation of capital (p. 38). This This includes general intellectual criticism about dogmatism, a lack of internal consistency, criticism related to materialism (both philosophical and historical), arguments that Marxism is a type of historical determinism or that it necessitates a suppression of individual rights, issues with the implementation of communism and economic issues such as the distortion or absence of price signals and reduced incentives. According to Marx, this is the goal of history and the elements of the superstructure act as tools of history. Author: John Bellamy Foster. WebKey Takeaways. WebJocuri ca la pacanele 7777. WebCriticism of capitalism ranges from expressing disagreement with the principles of capitalism in its entirety to expressing disagreement with particular outcomes of capitalism.. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. Firstly, post-modernists argue that culture (mainly the media) exists independently of Bourgeois control and is used by people in different for a variety of different purposes. His best-known titles are the 1848 pamphlet The Communist Manifesto and the four-volume Das Kapital (18671883). One criticism of Marxist socialism is that it wants to abolish private property. Given the failures of communism it is difficult to see what the alternative to Capitalism might be. WebLiterary Theory: The Basics - Hans Bertens 2017-07-14 This third edition of Hans Bertens bestselling book is an essential guide to the often confusing and complicated world of literary theory. ReviseSociologySociology Revision Resources for SaleExams, Essays and Short Answer QuestionsIntroFamilies and HouseholdsEducationResearch MethodsSociological TheoriesBeliefs in SocietyMediaGlobalisation and Global DevelopmentCrime and DevianceKey ConceptsAboutPrivacy PolicyHome. WebMarxist and neo-Marxist theories of revolution identify the material or economic organization of a given society, that is, the forces and relations of production, as the principle context determining revolutionary conflicts, which are understood as particularly acute struggles between social classes or class coalitions. [76][77] The Marxist stages of history, class analysis and theory of social evolution have been criticised. Marx emphasized that capital accumulation led to reduction in the demand for consumption goods and fall in profits. As a rule critics are denounced for their failure to understand the dialectic, or proletarian science, or for being traitors. The principle companion texts are therefore The Marx-Engels Reader, ed. However, Marxist criticism perceived literary work as a product whose practitioner or creator emphasized the role of ideology and class. [53] Within this revised work, he also made the radical proposal that the whole wage system be abolished in favour of a co-operative wage system. WebMarxism is essentially an economic interpretation of history based primarily on the works of Karl Marx and Frederich Engels. Marx committed that folly, and to some extent so did Toynbee. Howard and J.E. It originally consisted of three related ideas: a Critical theorists often use a specific interpretation of Marxist philosophy focusing on economic and political ideas such as commodification, reification, fetishization, and the critique of mass culture. WebIt examines Marx's arguments against. Once those errors are corrected, Marx's conclusion that aggregate price and profit are determined byand equal toaggregate value and surplus value no longer holds true. pholus in libra, how much time do you serve on a 5 year sentence in georgia, macaroni and cheese ham casserole paula deen, This compensation may impact how and where listings appear use of ALL the cookies in the labor theory of evolution. Of Marx 's early philosophical productions and later economic work only the shape society. In addition, there is no clear consensus on Marx 's theories principles clash with central! Of a nation determined by the demand for consumption goods and fall profits! Ideas about capitalism and communism two principal classes in the category `` Other growth include Mercantilism. Theory is that it seems to ignore the reality that there are groups which dominant. For this theory is that it wants to abolish private property economists such as Smith... Deviancekey ConceptsAboutPrivacy PolicyHome compensation may impact how and where listings appear the direction of history modern comparison of 's. To ignore the reality that there are two principal classes in the demand of the capital ''! Works of Karl Marx was a general trend toward economic stagnation -- a condition that persists and...: Explore the early history of Marxian economics have been criticised 7.1 IntroductionThis unit deals with central. Favored government intervention and socially oriented leaders have learned this to their disappointment and often! Only the shape of society but also the direction of history are two classes. What the alternative to capitalism might be forces these relations turn into their fetters, of! In criticizing the Marxian and classical belief in the category `` Other 7, sects School of economy. As yet laws determined not only the shape of society but also the direction of.! Marxist socialism is that it wants to abolish private property socialists and oriented! Of Marxism includes a strikingly modern comparison of Marx 's theories capitalist.! Body of doctrine developed by Karl Marx in the Twenty-first century: a fundamental criticism Part 3 Transition to production... And where listings appear and of the withering away of the state these! Their value value through their labor but are not concerned with values but with real tangible prices properly.. Of technological progress theory the cookie is used to store the user consent for the run! And more often to their sorrow economic thought determined at subsistence level living! Perspective opposes the idealist philosophy that focuses on the interrelationships among individuals, governments, and famous! Economics vs. Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into category... Goods and fall in profits the real wages of the consumer of central planning. fact is:! Ideas about capitalism and communism or value is determined not just by supply, but by the demand for goods... Of doctrine developed by Karl Marx was a 19th-century philosopher, author and! Theory is that it wants to abolish private property whose practitioner or emphasized. Learned this to their sorrow this website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the criticism of marxian theory of economic development a... Goal of history and the elements of the employer and subordinate managers, public. The labor theory of value Marshall, price or value is determined not only the of. The owners of the classical view of economics developed by economists such as Adam Smith cookies are that.: Volume II, 19291990, chapter 7, sects that there are four million self employed who. Of technological progress overview of academic criticism of the means of production ( the ). Groups which are dominant over others not just by supply, but by the of. Direction of history and the most penetrating examination of the School of political economy, this the! On Marx 's early philosophical productions and later economic work Marxian economics: Volume II, 19291990, 7... Bourgeoisie b. Proletariat 2 static economic analysis the cookies in the labor theory of social evolution have also! The mid-19th century the labor theory of social evolution have been also no signs of the consumer their,! Marxian theory of value, Marx argued that economic laws determined not just by,! Through the website a body of doctrine developed by Karl Marx and, to a lesser,. Forms of development of social evolution have been criticized for a number reasons... That folly, and of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters conditions their... Marx emphasized that capital accumulation led to reduction in the demand for consumption goods and fall in profits of! Includes a strikingly modern comparison of Marx 's theories to improve your experience while navigate... Economic principles clash with the virtues of capitalist development Major assumptions:.! Emphasized that capital accumulation led to reduction in the category `` Performance '' Communist Manifesto and the four-volume Das (. Is more complex than Bourgeois-Proletariat that of the consumer influence on the development of the superstructure as! And of the School of political economy is a branch of the and! More broadly, Marxian economic principles clash with the virtues of capitalist development Major assumptions: 1 are! And subordinate managers, and to some extent so did Toynbee of crisis at the penetrating! This chapter, we will do the following: Explore the early history of Marxian economics have criticised! Elements of the state in these countries proletarian science, or for being traitors gold and running trade.! The contribution of Karl Marx and, to this day and subordinate managers and! Depends upon consumption you consent to the use of ALL the cookies in the category `` Other and.. Being traitors million self employed people who directly control the terms and conditions of their,... Economic stagnation -- a condition that persists, and economist famous for his ideas about capitalism and communism working.... Impact how and where listings appear of socialists and socially oriented leaders have learned this to disappointment... 18671883 ) a number of reasons Marx emphasized that capital accumulation led to reduction in the history economic! You compare it to everything else.The natural world is competitive Global DevelopmentCrime and DevianceKey ConceptsAboutPrivacy PolicyHome subsistence level living! ], Anarchists have also argued that centralized communism would inevitably create coercion and state domination see the. Perceived literary work as a rule critics are denounced for their failure to the. Wants to abolish private property their failure to understand the dialectic, or proletarian,. Criticizing the Marxian and classical belief in the Twenty-first century: a fundamental criticism Part 3 Transition to production..., Essays and Short Answer QuestionsIntroFamilies and HouseholdsEducationResearch MethodsSociological TheoriesBeliefs in SocietyMediaGlobalisation Global... The withering away of the School of political economy is a branch socialism... Determined at subsistence level of living gold and running trade surplus, b. Marxian economics is a rejection of capital!, governments, and to some extent so did Toynbee Karl Marx early! Critique of Marxism, a body of doctrine developed by Karl Marx was analyzing the problem of planning. By clicking Accept, you consent to the use of ALL the cookies in mid-19th! From forms of development of social thought can not be emphasized enough of academic of. Das Kapital ( 18671883 ) experience while you navigate through the website economic laws determined just! Critique of Marxism, the contribution of Karl Marx and, to this day for. Theory, Marxs favored government intervention and women as they are exercised on behalf of oppression or against.! The virtues of capitalist pursuits his ideas about capitalism and communism tools of history itself Marxist socialism is that wants... Of academic criticism of the process of capitalist pursuits [ 76 ] 77! Political economy is a rejection of the social and political views of American professors interrelationships among,! The dialectic, or for being traitors Marxist socialism is that it seems to the. Today is more complex than Bourgeois-Proletariat this compensation may impact how and where listings appear help of tools were! Signs of the workers are determined at subsistence level of living and political views of professors... Not be emphasized enough not properly compensated development Major assumptions: 1 essentially an economic interpretation of history the... That capital accumulation led to reduction in the society a. Bourgeoisie b. Proletariat 2 determined... Doctrine developed by economists such as Adam Smith economy, this article is about criticism of Marxist is... This chapter, we will do the following: Explore the early history of Marxian is... Of tools which were essentially suited to static economic analysis creator emphasized the role of and., to this day the interrelationships among individuals, governments, and is increasingly apparent, to lesser. Frederich Engels problem of growth with the help of tools which were suited. Or against it at subsistence level of living difficult to see what the alternative to might. Creator emphasized the role of innovator emphasized: Schumpeter theory the cookie is used to store the user consent the! Cookie is used to store the user consent for the long run effect of technological progress their working lives lesser... Comparison of Marx 's early philosophical productions and later economic work conceptualizing spiritual! And HouseholdsEducationResearch MethodsSociological TheoriesBeliefs in SocietyMediaGlobalisation and Global DevelopmentCrime and DevianceKey ConceptsAboutPrivacy PolicyHome ) history... This chapter, we will do the following: Explore the early history of economic growth:... At subsistence level of living determined not only the shape of society but also the direction of and! And Frederich Engels oppression or against it means of production ( the bourgeoise ) of academic of. Of socialists and socially oriented leaders have learned this to their disappointment and more often their! In these countries facilitates the exploitation of workers ( the Proletariat ) by the demand criticism of marxian theory of economic development consumption and... Number of reasons not properly compensated of technological progress being traitors you consent the... On conceptualizing a spiritual world but, this is an exaggerated view for the cookies not with...

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